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No, X-Spam-Status: score=0.3 required=4.5 tests=BAYES_50,BODY_ENHANCEMENT autolearn=no version=3.2.0 Sender: 0.3 (spamval) -- NONE Return-Path: <improvetheworld-errors &AElig umich.edu> Received: from newman.eecs.umich.edu (newman.eecs.umich.edu [141.213.4.11]) by boston.eecs.umich.edu (8.12.10/8.13.0) with ESMTP id l4NFnd0b014282 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <dreeves &AElig boston.eecs.umich.edu>; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:49:39 -0400 Received: from hellskitchen.mr.itd.umich.edu (smtp.mail.umich.edu [141.211.14.82]) by newman.eecs.umich.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l4NFnaut007156; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:49:36 -0400 Received: FROM [141.213.251.57] (Unknown [141.213.251.57]) BY hellskitchen.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 46546256.EF19.6749 ; 23 May 2007 11:48:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: <268effb00705230743t135c17a3h2a4222428f49ea54 &AElig mail.gmail.com> References: <46532eb6.17cf4c70.68dd.ffffdd80SMTPIN_ADDED &AElig mx.google.com> <56e157e80705221227u59a5c1eawce5c05b02711d120 &AElig mail.gmail.com> <BBC5CE507EB7-4275-88FD-1CC158767ACC &AElig gmail.com> <268effb00705230743t135c17a3h2a4222428f49ea54 &AElig mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0111B152-6C37-4488-94B4-2BCBBB452581 &AElig umich.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.0 (2007-05-01) on newman.eecs.umich.edu X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.2/3286/Wed May 23 08:11:14 2007 on newman.eecs.umich.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by boston.eecs.umich.edu id l4NFnd0b014282 Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:48:41 -0400 To: Alyssa Pozniak <apozniak &AElig gmail.com> Cc: improvetheworld &AElig umich.edu, "ian moore" <ian.tadashi &AElig gmail.com>, "Daniel Reeves" <dreeves &AElig gmail.com>, "bethany soule" <bsoule &AElig gmail.com>, "Clare Dibble" <clare.dibble &AElig gmail.com>, "Christine Kapusky" <ckapoo &AElig gmail.com> From: Robert Felty <robfelty &AElig umich.edu> Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: Death by Veganism Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 988 I call myself a vegan, but am probably not as hard-core as some (e.g. I eat honey). I would say that most all vegans have nothing wrong with the use of breast milk. One tenet of veganism is that milking cows is doing so without the cows' consent. So forcing a mother to breast feed against her will would not be cool with vegans, but normal, consentual breast-feeding would be ok. I for one would be interested to see rigorous, unbiased scientific research done on the nutritional content of breast milk from mothers with a variety of diets. One anecdote on the quality of breast milk, and child-rearing in general. According to mother, she used to drink coffee and smoke a cigarette while breast-feeding me and my sister, and we both seem to have turned out relatively fine. I am in no way saying that this is healthy, but rather just want to stress that the human body is very complex, and that when we read studies of how something is "good" or "bad", "healthy" or "unhealthy" for us, we really need to look at the size of the effects. Many studies use fairly extreme cases, and show only small (though significant) effects. Rob On May 23, 2007, at 10:43 AM, Alyssa Pozniak wrote: > just fyi - the below post originally appeared in a public health> related > listserv i'm on and is in response to the Nina Planck editorial. > > and just to clarify for us non-vegans out here who aren't familar > w/ the > specifics -- does a vegan diet for a newborn mean no mother's > breast milk? > eliminating cow's milk (or other mammal's milk) i understand, but > to not > feed an infant breast milk as nature intended seems counter> intuitive to the > "mother earth" stance that often goes hand in hand w/ the vegan/ > vegetarian > way of life (yes i understand there are exceptions - i'm talking in > general > terms though). so i just wanted clarification from vegans in the > know (but > i *don't* want to start a debate on whether it's "good" vs. "bad"! :) > > Posted by: "Jason Ketola" keto0011 &AElig umn.edu > <keto0011 &AElig umn.edu?Subject=+Re%3A%20Death%20by%20Veganism> Mon May > 21, 2007 > 12:48 pm (PST) Nina Planck's op-ed "Death by Veganism" ironically > fails to > list any > deaths or even instances of ill-health resulting from well-planned > vegan > diets. > > To a vegan of eight years myself, who's met hundreds of thriving vegan > adults and children, Planck's claims of the inadequacy of the vegan > diet > ring patently untrue. > > It's worth interrogating Nina Planck's connection to the Weston Price > Foundation, which has a financial interest in disparaging veganism in > favor of "real milk" and the like. Not to mention her interest in > selling a book on that very topic. > > Jason > > > > > On 5/23/07, Robert Felty <robfelty &AElig gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Kapoo sent a link to an article which I think is worthy of >> improvetheworld discussion. The text of the article and a link to it >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> are at the bottom. Here is my 2 cents: Interesting article, but lacking in one very crucial aspect -references. I have several books on vegan nutrition which address issues of Vitamin B12 deficiency and lists way in which it is possible to get the required nutrients. Certain types of Omega 3 fatty acids are very difficult to get as a vegan. However, one must also keep in mind that comparisons between vegetarians and meat-eaters should be made comparing average health of vegetarians to average health of meateaters, and many such studies show vegetarians to be healthier overall than omnivores. I would very highly recommend "Becoming Vegan" by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina. It has lots of useful nutrition facts, cites many studies in highly-regarded journals, and lists all references. In regards to giving infants soy milk instead of formula, it is well known that this is a bad idea, and most soymilks have a warning on the package that it should not be used as infant formula. There are soy-based formulas though. Here's a link to a page listing a variety of different formulas: http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/baby/formulafeed/1334669.html I also read a bit more about Crown Shakur on some other blogs. There were many atypical circumstances in the case. The parents were a black, vegan couple in Georgia, who gave birth at home, and were apparently also quite poor. I do think that they probably made some mistakes, but from my cursory knowledge of the case, it does not seem that they intentionally killed their baby. I also think it is nearly impossible to say "beyond the shadow of a doubt" that had they fed their child differently, it would have lived. One of Clare's friend's sisters recently lost a child. The child was about 3-4 weeks old, and was sleeping on the father's chest. Apparently the father dozed off for a bit, and when he awoke, the baby was cold and blue. I can only imagine how traumatic this could be, and I cannot imagine having to go through a trial after such an event. These parents did have to go through some sort of social services thing, but they were punished not by law. The young and old are both very vulnerable, and much more likely to die unexpectedly than those in the prime of their lives. Unless there is reason to believe that the parents of Crown Shakur really did not want children, I do not think that they should be viewed as murderers, but rather as parents who just lost a child, and they should be consoled instead of jailed. Some of this also boils down to philosophy about the penal system. What is the role of punishment in the penal system? Is it to deter people from committing further crimes? Is it to get revenge on the perpetrators? Is it to protect citizens from being harmed by the criminal? In this case, I think it is unlikely that the parents of Crown Shakur would harm the child of other parents. I also find it hard to believe that they would intentionally kill another child of their own. I think the system is failing here. These parents should be monitored by social services, and if they choose to have other children, should be guided as to how to raise a healthy child within the constraints of their beliefs. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> One final note: Consider an alternative situation: an infant gets a high fever, but is not taken to the hospital or given drugs because the parents are Christian Scientists, and do not believe in modern medicine. The baby dies. Have these parents committed murder? Rob ARTICLE TEXT -----------------------------------------WHEN Crown Shakur died of starvation, he was 6 weeks old and weighed 3.5 pounds. His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple juice, were convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty. Skip to next paragraph Jacob Magraw-Mickelson This particular calamity at least the third such conviction of vegan parents in four years may be largely due to ignorance. But it should prompt frank discussion about nutrition. I was once a vegan. But well before I became pregnant, I concluded that a vegan pregnancy was irresponsible. You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from plants. Indigenous cuisines offer clues about what humans, naturally omnivorous, need to survive, reproduce and grow: traditional vegetarian diets, as in India, invariably include dairy and eggs for complete protein, essential fats and vitamins. There are no vegan societies for a simple reason: a vegan diet is not adequate in the long run. Protein deficiency is one danger of a vegan diet for babies. Nutritionists used to speak of proteins as "first class" (from meat, fish, eggs and milk) and "second class" (from plants), but today this is considered denigrating to vegetarians. The fact remains, though, that humans prefer animal proteins and fats to cereals and tubers, because they contain all the essential amino acids needed for life in the right ratio. This is not true of plant proteins, which are inferior in quantity and quality even soy. A vegan diet may lack vitamin B12, found only in animal foods; usable vitamins A and D, found in meat, fish, eggs and butter; and necessary minerals like calcium and zinc. When babies are deprived of all these nutrients, they will suffer from retarded growth, rickets and nerve damage. Responsible vegan parents know that breast milk is ideal. It contains many necessary components, including cholesterol (which babies use to make nerve cells) and countless immune and growth factors. When breastfeeding isn't possible, soy milk and fruit juice, even in seemingly sufficient quantities, are not safe substitutes for a quality infant formula. Yet even a breast-fed baby is at risk. Studies show that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA, vital as it is for eye and brain development. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A vegan diet is equally dangerous for weaned babies and toddlers, who need plenty of protein and calcium. Too often, vegans turn to soy, which actually inhibits growth and reduces absorption of protein and minerals. That's why health officials in Britain, Canada and other countries express caution about soy for babies. (Not here, though perhaps because our farm policy is so soy-friendly.) Historically, diet honored tradition: we ate the foods that our mothers, and their mothers, ate. Now, your neighbor or sibling may be a meat-eater or vegetarian, may ferment his foods or eat them raw. This fragmentation of the American menu reflects admirable diversity and tolerance, but food is more important than fashion. Though it's not politically correct to say so, all diets are not created equal. An adult who was well-nourished in utero and in infancy may choose to get by on a vegan diet, but babies are built from protein, calcium, cholesterol and fish oil. Children fed only plants will not get the precious things they need to live and grow. Nina Planck is the author of "Real Food: What to Eat and Why." On May 22, 2007, at 3:27 PM, Christine Kapusky wrote: > Interesting... > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------> From: jjk514 &AElig gmail.com <jjk514 &AElig gmail.com> > Date: May 22, 2007 10:56 AM > Subject: NYTimes.com: Death by Veganism > To: ckapoo &AElig gmail.com > > [image: The New York Times] <http://www.nytimes.com/ > > [image: E-mail > This] *This page was sent to you by: * jjk514 &AElig gmail.com > > Message from sender: > fyi. > > * OPINION * | May 21, 2007 > * Op-Ed Contributor: Death by Veganism > <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html? > ex=1180497600&en=f83902b3c8513583&ei=5070&emc=eta1> >* > By NINA PLANCK > You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from > plants. > > [image: Most E-mailed] > 1. Op-Ed Contributor: Death by > Veganism< http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html? > ex=1180497600&en=f83902b3c8513583&ei=5070&emc=eta1> > 2. This Is Your Life (and How You Tell > It)<http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/health/psychology/ 22narr.html? > ex=1180497600&en=12d9da8976db7071&ei=5070&emc=eta1> > 3. Mysteries to Behold in the Dark Down Deep: Seadevils and Species >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Unknown<http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/science/22deep.html? > ex=1180497600&en=1f342008210cb27f&ei=5070&emc=eta1> > 4. Books of The Times: Al Gore Speaks of a Nation in > Danger<http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/books/22kaku.html ? > ex=1180497600&en=b05d19a086e3f485&ei=5070&emc=eta1> > 5. Executive on a Mission: Saving the > Planet<http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/science/earth/ 22ander.html ? > ex=1180497600&en=64e3c95b9e4bc5cc&ei=5070&emc=eta1> > > Go to Complete List <http://www.nytimes.com/gst/ mostemailed.html ? > type=1> > > Copyright 2007 > <http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html> The > New York > Times Company <http://www.nytco.com/> | Privacy > Policy<http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/privacy.html > > > > > -> "Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans." > John > Lennon

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