[e-mail] From Mon May 19 19:03:05 1997
From: [e-mail] (Cdn-Firearms Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #850
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Status: RO
Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, May 19 1997 Volume 01 : Number 850
In this issue:
The advantages of owning a spine.
Re: Banning of all semi-automatic pistols
Re: Request for information
Re: canada customs
NFA Oct 96 questions to the CFC
death of Ernie Sopsich
Preston Manning in Barrie
re: AR-7
Re: John Les Liberal (Fraser Valley)
Vancouver East needs help
make your donation count 100%...
Another Ally?
5.56mm Ball ammunition. C-77, SS-109, M-855, M-193, etc
Typo
12 Gauge or .223?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:08:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Tempo marketing <[e-mail]>
Subject: The advantages of owning a spine.
Ladies and gentlemen of the C.F.D......
It is my pleasure to report to you today that another case of attempted
bullying by the infamous Surete du Quebec (Quebec Provincial Police)
has been frustrated by a member of the N.F.A.
Briefly, ***** **** of Montreal, bought several pistol frames or
receivers from a local dealer. These frames were of a type that are to
be prohibited because the most common barrels mounted on a fully
assembled firearm features lengths that would fall short of legal
requirements under (the not yet proclaimed) C-68.
Mr. ****, at the time of purchase from the dealer, did not own any
pistols of this type that would have entitled him to being
grandfathered at a future date.
After the required paperwork was completed and sent to the Surete for
processing, Mr. **** was repeatedly contacted by telephone by the local
firearms registrar and told that he would have to give up his right to
due process _at a future date_ if he ever wanted to see his purchases.
A form letter containing this stipulation was sent for Mr. **** to
sign.
Not liking to be pushed around (i.e. a typical N.F.A member), Mr. ****
decided to heed Dave Tomlinson's advice on the matter; he crossed out
the offending section, had me sign on as a witness and sent the forms
(4, one for each frame) back via registered mail to the Suretes permit
section.
To his surprise (as well as mine) he got his R.C.M.P green registration
slips (C-306s) in the mail recently.
I believe that the Surete is trying these extra-legal tactics in order
to avoid having to bring this type of case before the courts at a later
date. They would much rather have owners of this type of firearm give
up their rights beforehand.
Dave Tomlinson is apparently right on the mark when he advises
steadfastness in the face of official bullying. Try it. You may not
only like the results this brings, but you may even shake the
unmistakable feeling of being treated as a second-class citizen in your
own country.
Mike Swierzy,
N.F.A member & first-class citizen.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:46:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Banning of all semi-automatic pistols
>A recent posting on the digest by Bud Melless, asserted that the
>government has an order in council waiting to be enacted after the
>election. This OIC would ban all semi-automatic hand guns (I assume
>they mean self-loading pistols). I have contacted Mr. Melless about
>this in order to confirm the source. He told me that he had heard it
>from *** *******. I have just spoken to *** ******* [who] told me
>that *** heard it from several sources including Bud Melless. I
>wouldn't put it past the Liberals to do something like this, but I do
>not want to spread any unconfirmed rumors. If you have any information
>as to the validity of this OIC could you please post it to the digest.
>Thank you.
Never believe anything like this until you have written evidence in
your pocket. It is common to be handed material -- sometimes written,
but with no signature or letterhead -- that is totally false or CAN BE
CLAIMED TO BE TOTALLY FALSE. If you have no proof, DON'T use it. It
can do more harm than good.
But -- go out and SEARCH for proof.
Dave Tomlinson, NFA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:43:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Request for information
>A good friend over in Germany has sent me a FAX and asked for help
>in finding the address of a Canadian firm named "Dansk Arms". Could
>you be of assistance? Thanks!
>
>Frank
Forwarded to cdn-firearms-digest for answer. I don't know of it.
Dave Tomlinson, NFA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:44:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: canada customs
>Did you know that Ottawa has issued a directive to Canada Customs, to
>inspect all vehicles crossing into Canada that have any merchandise
>related to Firearms? For example: bullets, powder, primers any firearm
>parts etc. Cost to taxpayers is estimated at $130.00 per inspection.
>An other attack on firearm owners?
Yep. Also, there has been an order out for sme time now to record the
license plate numbers of cars that have imported firearms in the past,
and to search those cars every time they cross the border -- with or
without cause.
The incredible stupidity of that defies belief. While they are
occupied by searching the car of someone who DECLARES the firearms or
firearms parts or firearms accessories that he imports, the staff is
too busy to search the car of the person who does NOT declare the hot
guns he is bringing in.
It coesn't HAVE to make sense. It's GOVERNMENT POLICY!
Dave Tomlinson, NFA
FOCUS: If you want the idiocy of Ottawa reduced, help us elect a Reform
government. Either do that, or take the blame for what the Liberals
will do next.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:47:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: NFA Oct 96 questions to the CFC
I am STILL waiting for answers to the technical questions that I put to
the CFC in Oct 96. The answers to those questions are NEEDED, because
they affect many, many members of the firearms community.
While the Black Hole occasionally answers SIMPLE questions, it seems
to be unable or unwilling to answer any question that deals with
technical matters.
The refusal to answer bodes ill for the future. Either the CFC has no
one who KNOWS the answers to those questions, or it is too arrogant to
let us in on their little secrets.
If YOU are waiting for answers from the CFC, post it! We NEED to
evaluate the performance of the CFC-- because every person who works
there is OUR employee. Our tax dollars pay every salary in the place.
We CAN and SHOULD exercise careful scrutiny of the performance of our
employees.
Unless you keep a close eye on your employees, they may go bad on
you -- becoming arrogant, ignorant and incompetent. The CFC exists to
service its customers and please its employers. You and I are both its
employers and its customers.
Refusal to make delivery from Oct 96 to May 97 is a strong indication
that things are going very wrong in our CFC.
If YOU want to see the answers to the NFA's Oct 96 questions, send an
email to [e-mail] to help me blast them out
of their arrogance, ignorance and/or incompetence.
If they could not answer the NFA questions in Oct 96, I could accept
that. If they still cannot answer those questions, I have to point out
that they have utterly failed to LEARN the answers for SEVEN MONTHS.
Either they are too lazy to study the system and come up with the
answers, or they are too arrogant to answer questions that very
seriously affect many people in the firearms community, or they are
utterly incompetent and intend to STAY incompetent.
Whichever factor is preventing us from getting the answers we need, IT
IS UNACCEPTABLE. It is time for heads to roll, people to be FIRED, and
a general shakeup of the CFC. The present setup is intolerable, and WE
SHOULD NOT ACCEPT IT. They are PAID to give us SERVICE, and if they
refuse to give us that service, they should be FIRED.
Those are OUR employees, hired to provide SERVICE to the public. If
they think that they can sit in their nice air-conditioned offices and
do NOTHING about SERVICE, it is time that we came down on them --
HARD.
They have had SEVEN MONTHS to learn the answers. It is enough. Now we
want the answers.
Dave Tomlinson, NFA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:48:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Joey Nattrass <[e-mail]>
Subject: death of Ernie Sopsich
Tragically Ernie Sopsich was killed by a train Thursday, May 15, 1997
just outside the Ottawa area.
Ernie is well known and respected in the shooting community. He was an
active participant for over 20 years in various shooting disciplines.
He was a past executive director for the Shooting Federation of Canada.
In recent years Ernie was politically involved lobbying for the rights
of all in the shooting community.
His love and passion for the sport was reflected in every aspect of his
life.
The funeral will be held at Daniel's Funeral Home. The funeral is
currently being planned for Monday, May 19. Please call to confirm
exact time and date 613-448-2120.
Ernie was a great friend to everyone and will be sadly missed.
Brett Nattrass
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:49:14 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Mike Young)
Subject: Preston Manning in Barrie
On May 20 Preston Manning will be speaking at the Army/Navy/Air Force
club in Barrie, Ont. from 5:30 to 6:30. A good crowd of supporters will
impress the media, so anyone in the area please come out if you can.
Get there by 5:00 for parking as he is on a tight schedule. More info
from the Reform campaign office, Barrie, [phone].
Mike Young
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:49:57 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Mike Young)
Subject: re: AR-7
>I know you're a very busy man, so I'll be very brief. I own a Charter
>Arms AR-7. The entire gun breaks down and fits into the stock. It is
>illegal for me to keep a loaded gun in my vehicle. If the magazine is
>loaded and stored in the stock as opposed to the action, am I breaking
>any law???? The concensus here is pretty well split.
Back when I worked for an outfitter we had a moose hunter charged with
hunting from a powerboat. He had removed the loaded magazine from his
rifle while travelling down the lake. A conservation officer stopped him
to check licenses, noticed the magazine and charged him. Apparently a
loaded clip is a loaded gun, at least to Ontario Natural Resources.
Mike Young
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:52:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Michael Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: John Les Liberal (Fraser Valley)
"David A. Tomlinson" <[e-mail]> wrote:
> To: [e-mail] (Howard Burke)
>
> >John Les claims that the NFA is asking everyone to kick in one dollar
> >per gun to the NFA. This money is to be forwarded on to the Reform
> >Party.
>
> He is a liar. The NFA has not authorized any such request, has never
> asked for funds for ANY political Party, and does NOT donate to
> Parties.
>
> >He says it is on your Web site
>
> Where?
John [Les] is probably referring to the Gunner's Union Press site at
the URL below, which is "Produced by the Manitoba Chapter of the NFA."
Excerpt:
"Print and then fill out the attached form or visit our Home Page in the
"near future," http://www.mts.net/~cpianot/gunpress.html and give $1 for
every firearm you own to the Reform Party of Canada."
This does little to redeem John [Les]'s honesty. The page clearly
states that such gifts should be sent to the Reform Party of Canada. It
does _not_ ask for them to be sent to the NFA.
Mike
--
Michael Miller Quackgrass Press http://www.quackgrass.com
There are enough tax _evaders_ to elect a government
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:04:53 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (BC NFA)
Subject: Vancouver East needs help
Reform Candidate Keith Mitchell needs volunteers, if you live in this
area and can help, please call the campaign office at 604-254-3916.
Thanks
Michelle Traver
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:08:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: make your donation count 100%...
If you make a donation to a political party, you can get a tax
deduction from up to 75% of the donation, and with Reform, more of it
is used locally if you give it locally. (I don't know how other
parties are structured.)
With Reform, 80% of the donation stays with the riding (and 20% goes to
the head office in Calgary) if you give it to the riding. Twenty per
cent of a denation to Head Office goes to the riding.
During the writ period, a donation to a campaign is normally used
locally, only 100%.
For $25, you can make a $100 donation to a registered political
party, because you will be able to deduct $75 from your payable tax on
your next income tax return.
Skeeter
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:26:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Another Ally?
The firearms community is engaged in a battle to defeat Liberals in
federal Election 97. Another, unrelated group has come to my attention
-- a group trying to do the same thing.
APEC's complaint against the Liberals (and their lookalike, the
Conservatives) stems from those Parties' two efforts to put "distinct
society" into the Constitution wiithout safeguards to prevent the term
from giving higher and special status to one province. If they had
been successful, the courts would have "interpreted" the intention of
the Constitution. Fortunately, the amendment was defeated on the first
try by the refusal of two provinces to accept it, and on the second try
by the Canadian people in a binding referendum.
Have you noticed that Liberal and Conservative politicians, even today,
often tell us how stupid we were to reject that in the referendum?
Such arrogance!
Anyway, APEC is putting out small flyers that remind voters about those
Liberal-Conservative government efforts to warp our Constitution. They
push a lot of anti-Liberal and -Conservative buttons, adn should shift
a few votes toward the only political party that rejected Meech Lake
and Charlottetown -- Reform! The only party that understood the
desires of the voters...
If you would like a pile of these interesting little flyers to
distribute to or through your local gun store, gun club or personally,
phone [phone]-APEC [that's 1-888-800-2732], or email:
[e-mail]
You can also go visit them at 3080 Yonge St, Toronto ON, M4N 3N1
I hear they also have lawn signs...
Dave Tomlinson, NFA
FOCUS: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:28:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Brad Browne <[e-mail]>
Subject: 5.56mm Ball ammunition. C-77, SS-109, M-855, M-193, etc
Well folks,
There's been extensive discussion for the past XX years, ever
since the 5.56X45mm cartridge was trialed and accepted. The
discussions have ranged from "It's just a .22"..."The bullets tumble
when they hit"..."As good as the 7.62"..."lighter, can carry
more"..."Can't hit anything past 300m"..."doesn't penetrate"..."can
shoot through a helmet at 800m"..."waste of ammo in full-auto"...etc
etc. The adoption of the 5.56X45mm has caused no end of debate.
A significant portion of this debate is covered in the book
"Small Arms of the World." The edition that I am reffering to is the
12th, and was printed by Barnes and Noble in 1993. I'll reffer to the
text starting on page 58.
"The key requirements for the XM777 ball projectile were
improved penetration of hard targets at ranges of up to 800 meters
(penetration of at least one side of the standard United States steel
helmet at 800 meters) and the same probability for incapacitation given
a hit such as that of the standard M193 ball projectile."
"...the designers at Fabrique Nationale sought 5.56mm
projectiles that would have improved the range without the "inhumane"
aspects--such as tumbling and breakup--of the M193."
It should be noted that the XM777 cartridge and the SS109 are
similar, but not identical. They were competing designs, the SS109
being designed for use in 1/7 twist barrels, and the XM777 being
designed to be used in the (then) current issue M-16A1 rifles used by
the US, having a twist of 1/12.
"On the 28th of october, 1980, NATO approved the
standardization of a second small caliber cartridge for use within the
alliance (STANAG 4172):
To increase the total effectiveness of the family of infantry
small arms, several allied governments intend to intoduce into their
forces in the 1980s a new individual weapon. There is general
agreement that the present 7.62mm calibre will remain a NATO standard.
In order to select a second smaller and lighter weight ammunition for
NATO Small Arms to be standardized, an extensive technical and military
programme has been organized for the testing of weapons and ammunition
presented for evaluation by interested governments. As a result of
this exclusively technical and military programme, 5.56mm has been
adopted as second standard NATO calibre for small arms and the Belgian
SS109 ammunition has been selected as a basis for standardization of
ammunition for the second NATO calibre for small arms."
The commision came to the following conclusions:
"Small calibre ammunition and weapons tested were smaller and
lighter than the 7.62mm control ammunition and weapons. The smaller
calibre ammuntion is approximately half the weight and size of the
standard 7.62mm ammunition; the small calibre individual weapons are an
average 0.6kg lighter than the control weapon [FRG G-3 rifle in
7.62X51mm] and the smaller calibre light support weapons were at least
5kg lighter than the control weapon [Belgian MAG-58]. An infantryman
using the new calibre weapons and ammunition can carry more ammunition,
especially in the case of the new light support weapons, and not
increase the load he would carry if he were equipped with 7.62mm
ammunition and weapons. Logistic support is eased because the new
ammunition is smaller and lighter.
Some NATO nations have differing national concepts of the
employment of small arms weapons, particularly of light support
weapons. Some countries wish to have the performance of 7.62mm weapons
and are prepared to accept the increased weight and size. The tests
have shown that based upon the performance of the candidate weapons it
appears that light support weapons systems using the second calibre
ammunition can be produced to meet the needs of those nations who wish
to emply smaller calibre light support weapons with reduced weight and
size."
The comparative terminal ballistics for the 7.62x51mm NATO
ammunition and the various 5.56x45mm cartidges are found in a table on
page 62 of the book, here is some of this table:
Ammunition: 7.63x51mm SS77 5.56x45mm M193 5.56x45mm SS109
5.56x45mm XM777 Twist: 12" 12"
7" 12" Target: NATO plate: 620m
400m 640m 410m FRG Helmet: 640m
485m 1150m 600m US Helmet: 800m
515m 1300m 820m
(The portion of this table describing the SS109 cartridge's performance
from a 1/12 twist barrel has been exluded, the remainder is complete.)
From the mouth of the NATO commision itself, the M-193 bullet
had problems with tumbling and breakup upon impact. This is when the
ammunition was fired through the standard 1/12 twist M-16A1 rifle.
The SS109 bullet (as adopted as NATO standard) was designed by
FN to overcome this, and to be fired from a 1/7 twist barrel.
The SS109 bullet was also designed to have greater range and
penetration than that of the M193 bullet. The table above shows that
this was achieved.
Thus, the current NATO standard ammunition, when fired through
a current NATO specification rifle in 5.56mm is DESIGNED NOT TO TUMBLE
OR BREAKUP.
So, if you wish to read for yourself, the book is available
through Barnes and Noble, you can call them at 1-800-843-2665. The
ISBN of the book is 0-88029-601-1.
If you are interested in small arms or the development of
firearms in the world over the past 100 years, this is an EXCELLENT
book for you. The book is an excellent reference manual for someone
who's interested in small arms. It contains information on the weapons
used by various nations of the world, and even contains information on
stripping and assembly of various firearms. There are sections on
submachine guns, handguns, ...