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Unformatted text preview: 2/7/12 transcript19.html Introduction to Ancient Greek Histor : Lec N 13, 2007<< P A A G , , , P , , C A .I C A A L H C , , ?I' .H A T C S N , A , . .A , , P .S , ; T C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ /transcript19.html e 19 T an c ip W , C P ofe o Donald Kagan: C C , , , , I .I , C P P I . ,I C ' I A .A B S , C , . , C L ' ' .S , , , . C .W P ' ?I L , , ' A I , , , L P , , , C S .I , C . 433, , , , A , .N ' , , ' P ' ' , , A .W , . 1/14 2/7/12 transcript19.html T C 150, A C C P 120 , , ' 110 C L .T C A T , , , H C , A . ' , A .N , C , , Y G ' .S , .T C C ' 200 A B S , C .O , , ' .O 433 I' , , , , 432, ' .W . I' P . I' I' A C C S , , I 465. I P , P P . B P C 2,000 C .T C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ , T P -P , . S T epho -epho .T .T , , P P A , , .A , /transcript19.html 2/14 .R ,I C .C , , I P C , C P , C P .B , P P .E ' . A C , P S , S A ?I .I A , A , , I' ' P " , M " , , , , A P , P C --I A , .T 2,000--I .T ' 2/7/12 transcript19.html C , W C A ; 40,000 C C .T ' -- ' A ,I , , 1970 , P ?B , , . .T , , ' , .I C P T A .T M P A , . I' M I ' , , A .I I M , C I , .T I P W ? B , A , A .S , /transcript19.html -A C . C C .T .W ' M P , A O , A , I' -C 433. I .N A ; , C P , , ago a .I I E . A --L , I' , B , S , L .S , S .S , , , ; W .W , M .T .I ' ?I L .I' 435, S C . , ' C S , S , M P , A W M A S , I -C , C M , M , A , , P , 3/14 ' ' . , C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ 2/7/12 transcript19.html he a he a embl decided no o allo ha he Mega ian had done o go np ni hed, beca e he o de e o he Peloponne ian allie f om doing he ame he ne ime. Well, ha co ld he do? an ed Well, he e a e eall o hing he co ld do; come o hink of i befo e he came p i h hi idea he e a onl one. The co ld ma ch in o Mega a and figh , b of co e, ha o ld be an a ack di ec l on an impo an all of Spa a; i o ld be a b each of he hi - ea peace and i o ld b ing abo he g ea Peloponne ian Wa . Pe icle didn' an o do ha , b he didn' he Mega ian o ge a a co f ee, and o he in en ed a ne hing again, e one mo e ne idea, hich I again ega d a f ndamen all a diploma ic de ice mean o de e he kind of beha io ha a nece a o de e and ha a hi dec ee. And chola ha e fo gh fo e e and a da abo all a pec of i , and mo impo an l , abo ha i ' fo , h i ' going on, ha ' i p po e. Unle o nde and i a I'm gge ing o ho ld, i eall i ha d o ell, beca e i co ld no ha e d i en he Mega ian o of he Peloponne ian Leag e o e o he A henian ide, a i did no . The Mega ian a e ab ol el de e mined, emained e ibl ho ile. No hing, no ma e ho m ch he ffe ed co ld make hem change ide . Thi a an oliga chic p o-Spa an o fi ha an he place and ha ed he A henian e ibl . Pe icle had o kno ha . He a n' ing o ipe hem o , he a n' ing o ake hem o of b ine , he a ing o ho no o m ch hem, b o he Spa an allie ha he A henian co ld h hem in a ha he had no been h befo e i ho going o a and d agging he Spa an in. An comme cial G eek a e in he Peloponne , and mo of hem had o do ome kind of comme ce, and ome of he mo impo an one e e igh on he ea ho e, o ld ha e had o nde and ha he ignificance of hi a . So, he e e ha e he Mega ian Dec ee, and i i he hi d of he e p o oca ion a he Co in hian a i , ha helped o b ing on he a . We o ld e ch e m a he immedia e ca e , he official complain , a Th c dide o ld peak of hem hich a e een, o e e een b con empo a ie a being he ca e of he a . I ' impo an o ecogni e ha Th c dide hole o k, o a lea ce ainl Book One, i dedica ed o co ec ing ha he hink i an e o abo he e hing . In hi ie , i ' no he e pa ic la i ie ha ma e ; i ' he e ca e ha i he g o ing po e of A hen and he fea ha i engende ed among he Spa an and ha ' ha ha ' all abo . Well, he Co in hian in eac ion o he e e en , Co c a, Po idaea, Mega a p e ed he Spa an o ake ac ion, p e ed hem o call a mee ing, hich o ld allo he allie o make hei complain o he Spa an , and of co e, ha o ldn' ha e had an cce , if he e had no been Spa an ho hem el e had decided ha a again A hen a de i able and e e p epa ed; he o ld ha e had o be infl en ial Spa an ho ho gh ha -- membe of he gero sia, ephors, po ibl king . We kno a lea one Spa an king a no in fa o of i . In fac , he o he Spa an king a in e ile. So hi co ld no ha e been led b king , b a he b he o he o g o p of people. B i ' al o clea ha he majo i of Spa an e e no con inced, beca e he o ld no ha e needed o do ha he did if ha had been e. The called a mee ing of he Spa an a embl o hich he in i ed all a e ha had an g ie ance again he A henian , and of co e, o co ld ee ha he magi a e clea l an ed o i he people o a , b he e e no capable of deli e ing a majo i , and o he a embl ake place and I hope ha o ead ha ec ion e , e ca ef ll . The Co in hian make he deci i e peech, he e ence of i i -- ome of i i j ophi , b ome of i i o make he ca e, le ' no o abo all he e echnicali ie . Well, he migh no o abo ho e echnicali ie ; none of ho e echnicali ie amo n ed o a b each of he hi - ea peace. So, he e e a king he Spa an o iola e hei oa h b la nching a a ha iola ed hei C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ /transcript19.html 4/14 2/7/12 transcript19.html , . S C , A , T .N , . T A .I , : , S , I .I C , .W ' .B ; ' S T ' .T .I .T T P , H C , C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ S , , , .I , , -, .T C -' A , . .I , A S ?W ,I , .I , .T , .T ?I .T ' ,I A A , , ' , , , .S , .T ' ; ' , , , T ?W .T , --I ' ,I , . .T , , ' , ' .D ' ' .I , . .B , I , A , I' S S , I C .T S .S , /transcript19.html A , , , ; P , , ' I , ' , ' S . K A , . , , .H 5/14 2/7/12 transcript19.html sa was, this is not the time; let's wait for several ears. We need mone , we need to calculate all that kind of stuff, and so that was the argument that he made and he backed up the Athenian argument essentiall , sa ing this is not going to be a quick eas war of the kind we're accustomed to. If ou go to war now, and this is another memorable phrase that he emplo ed, ou will leave this war to our sons. That means he was sa ing this is going to take a generation to fight. That was his argument. Then on comes the epho who is the president of the meeting on that da ; his name is Sthenelaidas and he gives a wonderfull short Spartan laconic speech. He sa s, I've heard a lot of long speeches, most of which I don't understand. I'm just a simple Spartan is what he's impl ing, unlike these con men, unlike these sophist that ou've been listening to. What I know is these gu s are now la ing hands on our allies and he was talking mainl about the Megarian Decree. So, the onl question is, are we going to let them do that or not, and I sa let's not. And then he called for the vote. Interesting thing happens there too. You know how the Spartans vote? The bang on their shields and the ell. Those in favor, those who believe the Athenians have broken the treat . That's the wa the thing was put to them and the indicate in the usual wa and the all bang, and those who think not, the same noise, and then he said, I reall couldn't tell which side was the louder. So, let's have a division and count, which was unusual, ver unusual in the Spartan assembl . At which time he found a ver large majorit in favor of the war. You know I've gone on both wa s on the question of what did he hear and what didn't he hear the first time, and so I still don't know for sure what happened. I mean, one interpretation is reall couldn't tell; it was ver close. Well, wh wasn't it close on the division? Because in a place like Sparta ou don't want to show ourself as being against war when other gu s are in favor of it. That's not what brave men and Spartans do, even though ou think that would be a good idea. The other possibilit is he knew right awa there was a majorit , and a clear majorit for war, but he wanted ever bod else to see how big that majorit was. I don't know what I think. I think I wrote in one book one thing and in another book another thing. So, the Spartans voted that the Athenians had broken the peace and the implication was we should go to war; that took place at a meeting in Sparta probabl in Jul of 432, but the war doesn't start--let me back up. The Spartans don't go marching into Attica to fight the Athenians until probabl March of 431. Wh did it take so long for the Spartans to fulfill what the had just voted for? There's no reall good reason wh the couldn't begin immediatel . Some scholars point out Jul is too late to cut down the grain in Athens, which would alread have been harvested and put awa . Fine, but that's not all the Spartans have to do in Athens. One of the things the do is to go out into the farms, burn farmhouses, destro as man olive trees as the can, cut down as man grapevines as the can, all of that can be done in Jul and August, and September just as well as it can be done at an other time. So, I don't think that's a good reason. I think what happened was that the heat that had been stoked up b the Corinthian argument and those of their allies--we onl have the Corinthian speech, but ou can bet the Megarians and the Potidaeans laid on a prett hot set of complaints as well, so did the Island of Aegina. So, it was in the heat of anger that the Spartans voted. It must be, I think, that when the had a chance to think it over the thought that ma be Archidamus knew what he was talking about and the better think again. So, there is time in this stretch of--what is--about nine months for the negotiations that did indeed follow. Missions were sent from Sparta to Athens to tr --well, we shall see to tr to do what. The first mission sent to Athens made the demand that there need be no war, if the Athenians would simpl drive out the curse. Well, we know what that is, the curse of the Alcmaeonidae. What Alcmaeonidae are we talking about? Pericles mother is an Alcmaeonid and he's the onl prominent Alcmaeonid around. This is an attempt to-- ou could think it to get C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ /transcript19.html 6/14 2/7/12 transcript19.html P .T ; ' A . , ' P .W , , A P , ' T T A -A .N , , S , P M ; D .I , . , I , A ' M D , A , . T , ?S , ?M P T -M , ,T . , M , ' S ' ?W A , .T ?H . .H ; A ' S B , P M D .T .I P ; .T S ,I , S , D , ' , ?W S P . I .N , B T A A P T W A P .I .T S .T S , A /transcript19.html I .W , ?S 431 .W P ' A . .B , S A M , S 431 S P A A G A .T ---I' ' I' , .T .B ' , ' , G C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ 7/14 2/7/12 transcript19.html ; S , ' A .T , , , C .T S A .S , S A A .N , A I , , .Y ' .S , S N , W ' .W , ?W C , .P .T S . O C .A I T C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ /transcript19.html ' S S , ' ' . .I' .W ?B , .T ' , .S , S S M C P . ' L , , C , , A , G A .T , A ' ? ' , S , , -, , ? 445 A ; ' .T , . ' , , . , , ?W , ' , C , .W , .S ,I , ' , ' ' , , ?S T .R . ' ' , , ; P M , ' , , , I' ?W , , ' S S , , S ' , ,I , , , 8/14 2/7/12 transcript19.html -- ' ' .W A S M S . K S ' .H , , S I , S ; ' , , , S ,P , .I' I .T .H , . I I' I , ' .I T , L , ' C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ /transcript19.html A , , K .I' ?W .T .I T A , , , , ?P , , I D ,I A ,P , P A ,I ' , ' , .T , S I' , , P ,I , .T , .S , S , -- ' ?H A , , . ' .I S .I ' A , A ,I , ,I , .I , P ; S , ' , , P ' S ' .B ' G P S ' .I ' ' , A , ' S , I I .A G , .T . , ' .Y , .T , I . C W , . ," .B ." I ' 9/14 ' S , .I P W ; A .I 2/7/12 transcript19.html . S , .I , , .W I' , .S ,I ,T I . N , 2,400 ?W ,T A .H , . B , G .H H .T , .M H N I , , , , .W , .T . S R F ; .L , H C W , ,F .B , E B .S G , E R .A S A , W W W , V 10/14 ' I ' T , R H .W ?A A , .N , "T .I P ?W , I W ," T P ?W T W ?W , , G G P G , W 460 B.C. H ?O , H .I T ' , , , , , .M , , , F W .F .B . ' ? ' W .M A , A , A.J.P. T C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ /transcript19.html 2/7/12 transcript19.html . T , .W L E V , T , .A .T , T E W.H. A , L I , B M , , ' 1920 , , .B , G 431 ,I 427, , . I .T , ' 2,400 B T O C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ /transcript19.html .W , F G E , , H , ?I ." S V H ' ' F .T 30 .S , , . .I , , , H T P .B ,I .S .T .H ' , .H .H . . , I' .T 11/14 W , W , .T A . , H ' , . ' .H ' , .F P , ' .F .T N G , "A G , "S 1, 1939," L .W . W W G , ' T , , .H ? , T W , , T .T , , , .H , ' T ' 2/7/12 transcript19.html B.C. E P , . I 425 .T . I' .T A , , C 436 W --I' C C , S ' C .T , ,I M A D , ,D P , Acha nian . T , S H ' D M , A A ,P M .W N , S N H M A I ,I P , , , "T L P . , "S ' M M ' , ." N M , , A 2,000 .A , , D H , A P , A P .T , M P P ," A D ,P P M .T D P .H , ' ' , A .H I' . /transcript19.html 12/14 , , M P ,I S , , , ." T , "E , , , , , "S , , , ." .T , .J J M , G 421. ." H A , , ." W , ' , . , M D P H P L D T , W , .S , A ' , W , , .H .H , .T ' , , , .H .H , , ' ' C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ 2/7/12 transcript19.html H , , .S .I ' , ' T P .J T T .H A T P .H P .J I E R a co ia , . W , M ; A .M P C 430. H , S , ,T . I' P . I I' , A , .P , T P , ' ?Y ,I , ,I , , A , ?I .H .W ' , , , , A .H , .I ' .P , T P I P -' .H I A .S .T .I .A I' . C .O , A .I --I , , .A .H , P , . ' , .T ?T .N P W , I' . I' . I 424 A A .H . T , .T , , ' 13/14 .S , 65 B II, P ' . , , A po e a , , , .P . , , , , , . , A C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ /transcript19.html 2/7/12 transcript19.html get elected general in 424 and wasn't that about the most radical year in the entire history of Athenian democracy? Weren't you a great pal? How could it be a blue blood like you, who knows what nonsense democracy is, how could you possibly hold those positions? And in my view, his history is his answer to those questions. You think that the war is about the Megarian Decree and that Pericles is responsible for it, you're completely wrong. The war was inevitable, and became so as soon as the Athenian Empire came on board to challenge the Spartan hegemony. Your view is na ve and ignorant. So, please pay attention to my history when I get it fully written. You think that Pericles was a democrat you bloody fool; he was a man who ruled over others; he did not take his orders from the assembly. You think that we lost the war, because we had a bad strategy? The truth is the strategy was right, and if his successors had not abandoned that, they would have held out and won the war. So, you see all of your main ideas about what's happened to us in the past are wrong, and that is why I did what I did and I was right to do so every step of the way. That was his history and in my view was not merely an account of the past; it was an apologia p o i a a, a defense of his own life and of the great decisions that were made in it. Of course, what I've just said is highly controversial. Next time we'll talk about the strategy in the war. [end of transcript] back to top C:/Users/JIMMIN~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$EX06.629/ /transcript19.html 14/14 ...
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This note was uploaded on 02/07/2012 for the course ECON 159 taught by Professor Benjaminpolak during the Fall '08 term at Yale.

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