543 1: 544a 'I'hat's not hard,' he said 'You were presenting your a pretty much as you are doing now, as though you had completed M description...
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What is the main position of Socrates in Scene 543a to 547a?Which philosopher had a similar position (

OTHER THAN PLATO)?


Which philosopher had an opposing position?

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mmhmvow THE REPUBLIC 543d :4? a dissolved. And this will be its dissolution: bearing and harrennesg of soul and bodies come not only to plants in the earth but to animals on the earth when revolutions counplcte for each the bearing round of circles; for cores with short lives. the jotlme'y is short; for those who" lives are the opposite, the journey,r is the Opposite. Although they are wise, the men you educated as leaders ofthe city will nonetheless fail to hit on the prosperous birth and bat-mines: at your kind with calcula_ tioo aided by sensation, but it will pass them by. and they will at satire time beget children when they should not. For a divine hirt'n there Is a period comprehended by a perfect number; for a human birth, by the first number in which. root and square moteeses. comprising three distances and four limits. of elements that make like and unlike and that wax and wane, render everything conversa'ole and rational. or these elements, the root four-three mated with the five, thrice in. creased. produces two hammer. One of them is equal on equal num. ber of times, taken one hundred more over. The other is ofequal length in one way hut is an oblong; on one side, of one hundred rational diameters Ofthe five. lacking one for each; or. Hot irrational diameters, lacking two {or each; on the other side, of one hundred cubes of the three. This whole geometrical number is sovereign ofbetter and worse begettingsfi And when your guardians from ignorance of them cause grows to live with bride' outof season. the children will have neither good natures nor good luck. Their predeomwss will choose the best of these children; but. nevertheless, since they are unworthy, when they, in turn, come to the powers of their fathers, they will as guardians first begin to neglect us by having less consideration than is required, first, for music, and, second, for wastic; and from there your young will become more unmusicel. And rulers chosen from them won't be guar- dians very apt at testing Heswd's race-1' and yours—gold Bod silver and bronze and iron-And the chaotic mixingof iron with silver and of bronze with gold engenders unlikeness and inhmmon'mus irregularity, which, once they arise, always breed-war and hatred in the place where they happen to arise. Faction must always be said to he 'of this ances- or! wherever it happens to rise." "And we'll say," he said, "that what the Muses answer'is right." nNecessarily," I said. "For they are Muses." "What," he said. "do the Muses say next?" "Once faction had arisen," I said, "each of these two races. the iron and bronze. pulled the rogime toward money-making and the possession of land, houses, gold, and silver; while the other two, the gold and the silver—not being poor but rich by nature—Bed the souls tward virtue and the ancient establishment. Struggling and strait-ling against one another, the}.I came to an agreement on a middle way: they [2:14]

' MVIH i'r 5430-5486 EDWIN/mum "Well, we have already described the man who is like the 5443 aristOcIacy, a man of whom We rightly assert that he is both good and 'ust.' J "Yes, we have described him." 545 :3 "Must we next go through the worse men—the man who loves victory and honor. flared in relation to the Laomian regime; and than. in turn, an oligarchic and a democratic man, and the tyrannic man, so that Seeing the most unjust man, we can set him in opposition to the most i151 man? If so, we can have a complete consideration of how pure justice is related to pure injustice with respect to the happiness and wretchedness ofthe men possessing them. In this way wemay be persuaded either by Thrasymechus and pursue injustice, or by the argument that is now coming to light and pan-sue justice." I: "That," he said. "is most certainly what must be done." "Then, just as we began by considering the various dispositions in the regimes before considering than in the private men, supposing that to be the more Ila-ruinous way; so must we now consider first the regime that loves honor—I can give no other name that is used {or it in com- mou parlance; it should he milled either timocracy or timarchy.' And. in relation to this reghne, we shall consider the like man, and after that oligarchy and an oligarchic man. Later, alter having looked at c dancer-any. we'll view a democratic man; and fourth, hawng gone to the city that is under a tyranny and seen it, then lwlrhig into a tyran- nic soul. we shall try to become adequate judges oil the subject we pro posed for ourselves." "It would, in any case." he said. "he a reasonable way for the ohw starvation and judgment to take place." "Well, come, then," I said, "let's try to tell the way in which a timocracy would arise Eon: an aristocracy. Or is It simply the case that change in every regime comes from that part of it which holds the d ruling chime—when faction arises [n it—while when it is ofone mind, it cannot be moved, be it composed of ever so few?" "Yes, that's so." "Then. Glaucon," I said, "how will our city he moved and in what way will the auxiliaries and the rulers difide into factions against each other and among themselves? Or do you want us, as dos-s Homer, to pray to the Muses to tell us how Traction first attacked," and shall we 9 say that they speak tcf us with high tragic talk, as though they were speaking seriously, playing and jesting with us like children?" "How?" "Something like this. A city so mmposod is hard to be armed 546a But. since for Whlng that has come into being there is decay. not even a composition such as this will remain for all time; it will be [223]

543 1: 544a "I'hat's not hard," he said "You were presenting your a pretty much as you are doing now, as though you had completed M description nt'what omoems the city, saying that you would class a city such as you then described, and the man like it, as good. find you did this. as it seems in spite of the [act that you had a still finer city and man to tell of, Anyhow, you were saying that the other cities are mistaken ifthis one is right. Concerning the remaining regimes, as I l'e- member, you asserted that there are four forms it is worthwhile to In"; an accent of, and whose mistakes are worth seeing; and Sh'nflarly with the me- who are like these regimes; so that. when we have seen them all and agreed which man is best and which worst, we could confide; whether the best man is happiest and the worst most wretched, or whether it is othemlae.1|\nd just as I was asking which four regimes you meant, Polernarchus and Adeimantus interrupted. That' 5 how you picked up the argument and got here." "W'liat you member," 1 said, "is quite correct." "Well, then, like a wrestler, give me the same hold again; and when I put the same question, try to tell what you were going to say then." "lfl am able." 1 said. "And, in fact,' he said. "I myself really desire to hear what four regimes you meant." "It won't be hard [or you to hear them," 1 said. "For those I mean are also the Ones having names; the one that is praisad by the many, that Cretan and hemian regime; and second in place and second. in praise, the one ballad oligarchy. a regime filled. with throngs ofevils and this regime's adversary, arising next in order, democracy; and then the noble tyranny at last, excelling all orthese. the fourth and extreme illness of a city. Or have you some other idea of a regime that fits intn some distinct form? For dynasties and purchased kingsh'rps and certain regimes ol' the sort are somewhere between these, and me would find them no less among the barbarians than the CHEERS-"1 "At any rate," he said, "many strange ones are talked about." "Do you know." I said, "that it is necessary that there also be as many terms of human characters as there are forms of region? Or do you suppose that the regimes arise 'frorn an oal: or rocks" and will from the dispositions of the men in the cities, which, tipping the scale as it were draw the rest along with than?" "No," he said. "I don't at all think they arise Benn anything other than this." . 'Therefnre if there are five arrangements of cities, there would a}- so be five for the soul DI private men." "Surely." lzzr]

BOOK VIII "Ml right. This much has been weed. Glaumn: for a city that is going to be governed on a high level. women must be in common, chi]- dren and their entire education must be in mmmon. and similarly the practices in warand peace must he in common. and their kings must be those among them who have proved test in philosophy and with respect to war." "Yes," he said. "it has been agreed." "Furthermore, we also accepted that when the rulers are once established, they must [aloe the lead and settle the soldiers in Muses—such as we spoke of before—that have nothing private for anyone but are common hr all. And. In addition to such houses' as to possessions, if you remember, we presumably came to an agreement show what sort they are to have." "Yes, ] do member," he sold, "that we supposed that no one must possess any of the things the others nowadays have; but that like champions other and guardians, they will reoeiveawage annuallyfiom the others consisting of the bare subsistence required for their guarding, and for this wage they must'taloe care ofthemselves amt! the res! of the dry." "What you say is right," I said. "But came, since we have com- pleted this. let's recall where we took the detour that brought ushere so "Were can gobad: to the same way." [22]] 543::

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